Nice summary and a well thought out piece. Thanks for pulling it together.
Kansas Bob
· 9 months ago
Ditto what Andy said.. very comprehensive and well thought out Shane.
Here is part of what Scot McKnight (Jesus Creed) said on Monday:
If God is God, and if God speaks to us in the Bible, then God spoke words that show that wine drinking is fine. One may choose not to drink, but that view is more extreme than what the Bible says. Drinking too much is contrary to the Bible, but not drinking at all is not what the Bible teaches (except for ascetic strands at time).
But, let's not fall for the idea that being more biblical than the Bible is safe ground. Extremism is not righteousness; extremism is zealotry. Trust that what God says is what God wants.
Nice summary and a well thought out piece. Thanks for pulling it together.
Joe C.
· 9 months ago
Shane,
Possibly the most intelligently and honestly written pieces on this subject that I have ever read.
Thank you so much for this series. This post, in particular, I am going to be sharing with my family.
Thank you again.
Joe.
Shane Vander Hart
· 9 months ago
Wow, Joe thank you so much for your kind words. I appreciate it.
Rodney Olsen
· 9 months ago
I'll drink to that. Ah ... maybe the wrong thing to say.
My dad drank heavily as I was growing up. He was not a falling down drunk but he did like his beer.
I chose not to drink and it's only in the past several years, from my mid 30s to now my mid 40s, that I've started having an occasional drink. I've never been drunk in my life and don't intend to be. I enjoy a good glass of red or the occasional beer.
Your post is very balanced and pretty much sums up my attitude to alcohol. Thanks.
Shane Vander Hart
· 9 months ago
LOL... thanks!
Angel
· 9 months ago
Good post, Shane :)
Shane Vander Hart
· 9 months ago
Thanks Angel!
Noah David Simon
· 9 months ago
I'm not Christian, I'm a Jew... and I rarely drink. but frankly it is the Caffeinated stuff that is a danger to our culture these days. Speed is a huge problem. I speak not to lecture you because I abuse coffee too. I brew French Press and it's bad for me and I can't stop.... I drink a large thermos every day. It is part of my internet habit. I'd like to stop
Shane Vander Hart
· 9 months ago
Noah... now you are getting in my business ;), LOL. I am actually trying to cut back, but as with everything - in moderation.
casey
· 9 months ago
I come from a dry Baptist background, but my views have changed since I started living in Japan. I am unable to find any scriptures that prohibit drinking, but there are some the prohibit getting drunk. Some people may say that it is better to be safe than sorry (i.e. better to avoid it all together than run the risk of getting drunk), but it is a personal choice. I personally can't stand the taste of alcohol, so I don't drink anyway.
Shane Vander Hart
· 9 months ago
That is the primary reason why my wife doesn't drink - she can't stand the taste.
Foxfier
· 9 months ago
Oh, goodie! Your mention of what kind of wine they had reminded me that somewhere-- way back in my memory-- it was explained that at Catholic Mass we add water to the wine, because only tacky folks didn't, Way Back When.
Now I've got to start a file on Ancient Alcohol.....
Shane Vander Hart
· 9 months ago
I can't say I've researched it all that much. I just looked at what I had on my bookshelf.
Matt Ralph
· 9 months ago
Well said, Shane.
Shane Vander Hart
· 9 months ago
Thanks Matt!
Josh
· 9 months ago
I'll definitely agree with your summary Shane! And I'm glad for this conversation.
While I lived in Northwest Indiana I always felt like Christian culture portrayed drinking as some horrible sin. As if anyone who takes a sip must be getting drunk. Even at Trinity U I felt it was being portrayed like that. I would like to say I have never been crazy, obnoxious, puking, cant remember where I was drunk, but I have had 3-4 drinks in a night span to where I had to make a decision not to take another drink in fear that if I did I might be on the road to too much. I've definitely had friends who chose not too drink for certain reasons and I completely respect that, but too often I would still feel the pressure of those who choose the non-drinking lifestyle to push it upon me. I love going out with some of the guys and just hanging out and talking about life while having a couple drinks, it's just always a great time.
Now when I moved to the southern tip of Illinois, I felt a different Christian culture(and it definitely included NASCAR haha!). One that was all inclusive to drinking and had no reservations about it. It felt freeing for a bit, then not as much. But in both situations I felt that not many people had a real understanding of what the bible says about drinking. So, I am glad that you would speak on this. We love our church out here in CA and he has definitely touched on this topic just as you have.
Shane Vander Hart
· 9 months ago
You are welcome Josh. I had issues with several of Trinity's standards... especially after I got married, but then I also knew if I wanted to go to school there I had to abide by them. Nobody forced me to sign the community expectations so integrity required it.
One rule that really drove me nuts, and I don't know if they changed it when you and Ang were there was the "no hats in chapel" rule. Ugh.
Ken Christensen
· 9 months ago
Does that have something to do with worshiping with your head covered as a man, and not worshiping without your head covered as a woman? I've wondered about that, especially in light of the change Jesus said was coming when he talked with the woman at the well... "The Father seeks worshipers who worship in spirit and in truth." -- John 4
Shane Vander Hart
· 9 months ago
I think so because they would allow women to wear caps which drove me nuts. I was a pretty new believer at the time.
Josh
· 9 months ago
Nah, I'm pretty sure it was no hats at all. I think it was a combo of it being disrespectful and not wanting you to fall asleep. I hated being forced to go to chapel, at greenville if you didn't go to chapel they just wouldn't let you get better housing. Good thing I left TIU when I did, my last semester I was like 50 under the chapel limit and they had just placed a new rule saying if you didn't make your chapels that you were getting kicked out. It was dumb, glad I left then, but I sure miss 104 and my friends from there.
Ken Christensen
· 9 months ago
Just wanted to let you know I appreciate the work you put into this piece. When people find out that I've never been drunk, they're usually pretty surprised. I used to say something like, "I have a hard enough time controlling my tongue when I'm sober, why would I want to get drunk?"
While that is true, I really would like a tactful, yet honest way to explain to them that beyond not embarrassing myself, I do not want to sin in this area. And, to demonstrate that it is possible to have a great time without being drunk.
Then, as far as caffeine goes... I used to drink two pots from the bunn-o-matic at work each day. I realized it was a problem when I could not hold the mug steady enough to drink with just one hand. I decided to quit drinking coffee, cold turkey, to make sure that I was in control of my coffee, instead of my coffee controlling me. I think I had a headache for a week, but eventually life returned to something more normal, and the shaking stopped.
I went to drinking one Starbucks Frappucino per day, and for a treat, maybe it was two.
I stick to decaffeinated... been doing that for several years now. That is until I found Shane's Caffeinated Thoughts blog.
The bottom line is: moderation in all things. Should we talk about gluttony? Or, how little exercise we get these days? Maybe I should get out the Wii Fit!
Shane Vander Hart
· 9 months ago
I'm glad this post was helpful.
Now... don't blame me for falling off the wagon, LOL.
All Comments
Here is part of what Scot McKnight (Jesus Creed) said on Monday:
If God is God, and if God speaks to us in the Bible, then God spoke words that show that wine drinking is fine. One may choose not to drink, but that view is more extreme than what the Bible says. Drinking too much is contrary to the Bible, but not drinking at all is not what the Bible teaches (except for ascetic strands at time).
But, let's not fall for the idea that being more biblical than the Bible is safe ground. Extremism is not righteousness; extremism is zealotry. Trust that what God says is what God wants.
http://blog.beliefnet.com/jesuscreed/2009/03/th...
Possibly the most intelligently and honestly written pieces on this subject that I have ever read.
Thank you so much for this series. This post, in particular, I am going to be sharing with my family.
Thank you again.
Joe.
My dad drank heavily as I was growing up. He was not a falling down drunk but he did like his beer.
I chose not to drink and it's only in the past several years, from my mid 30s to now my mid 40s, that I've started having an occasional drink. I've never been drunk in my life and don't intend to be. I enjoy a good glass of red or the occasional beer.
Your post is very balanced and pretty much sums up my attitude to alcohol. Thanks.
Which led me to:
http://www.unrv.com/economy/wine-chart.php
I love the internet, and colleges.
Now I've got to start a file on Ancient Alcohol.....
While I lived in Northwest Indiana I always felt like Christian culture portrayed drinking as some horrible sin. As if anyone who takes a sip must be getting drunk. Even at Trinity U I felt it was being portrayed like that. I would like to say I have never been crazy, obnoxious, puking, cant remember where I was drunk, but I have had 3-4 drinks in a night span to where I had to make a decision not to take another drink in fear that if I did I might be on the road to too much. I've definitely had friends who chose not too drink for certain reasons and I completely respect that, but too often I would still feel the pressure of those who choose the non-drinking lifestyle to push it upon me. I love going out with some of the guys and just hanging out and talking about life while having a couple drinks, it's just always a great time.
Now when I moved to the southern tip of Illinois, I felt a different Christian culture(and it definitely included NASCAR haha!). One that was all inclusive to drinking and had no reservations about it. It felt freeing for a bit, then not as much. But in both situations I felt that not many people had a real understanding of what the bible says about drinking. So, I am glad that you would speak on this. We love our church out here in CA and he has definitely touched on this topic just as you have.
One rule that really drove me nuts, and I don't know if they changed it when you and Ang were there was the "no hats in chapel" rule. Ugh.
While that is true, I really would like a tactful, yet honest way to explain to them that beyond not embarrassing myself, I do not want to sin in this area. And, to demonstrate that it is possible to have a great time without being drunk.
Then, as far as caffeine goes... I used to drink two pots from the bunn-o-matic at work each day. I realized it was a problem when I could not hold the mug steady enough to drink with just one hand. I decided to quit drinking coffee, cold turkey, to make sure that I was in control of my coffee, instead of my coffee controlling me. I think I had a headache for a week, but eventually life returned to something more normal, and the shaking stopped.
I went to drinking one Starbucks Frappucino per day, and for a treat, maybe it was two.
I stick to decaffeinated... been doing that for several years now. That is until I found Shane's Caffeinated Thoughts blog.
The bottom line is: moderation in all things. Should we talk about gluttony? Or, how little exercise we get these days? Maybe I should get out the Wii Fit!
Now... don't blame me for falling off the wagon, LOL.